Judith M. Persichilli, R.N., B.S.N., M.A., is President Emeritus of Catholic Health East-Trinity Health. She previously served as interim President and CEO of CHE Trinity Health and helped lead CHE's planned merger with Trinity Health, a consolidation that would result in the U.S.'s third-largest not-for-profit health system employing 87,000, with combined revenue of more than $14 billion.
What is the biggest challenge faced by business leaders today?
I don't separate women and men when I talk about the biggest challenge faced by leaders--which is the fast-paced environment we're in. It's trying to keep up with the constant barrage of information and being able to sort through all that information and make sense of it for decision making. It's such a different environment than when I first started in health care, and in my first leadership position.
Some studies assert that women leaders are more persuasive, assertive, and willing to take risks than male leaders. Do you agree? Has this been your experience?
First of all we are different--our brain architecture is different. The way we deal with the world is different. All of those studies, to include Helen Fisher's [anthropologist and human behavior researcher] work on that and her book on enlightened power, for example, support this. I've read a lot of the research and I do believe that certainly there is a difference. And I think women hone those skills over time, as mothers, as daughters, as spouses, and are able to develop emotional intelligence to a much higher degree and I think that more than anything truly allows women to understand the environment a little bit differently than perhaps male leaders. In fact my experience is that women leaders have a tendency to be broader in their approach to the workplace and I think it's because their emotional intelligence is at a much higher level. They know who they are and how they want to present themselves in the workplace--and it's not just one way.
You've read Lean In, by Sheryl Sandberg--what are your thoughts?
I know there's been a lot of controversy--people say, "well, you know, she's lucky--she makes a lot of money, she can afford a nanny," etcetera, but I think she has a lot of interesting points, particularly that no matter who you are, how wealthy you are, what opportunities you've perhaps been the beneficiary of versus someone else, we all sometimes have tears in our eyes in the workplace, and so did she. We all experience a lack of self confidence in some areas in the workplace, and so did she.
I think it shows that as women we shouldn't be afraid to be who we are and we shouldn't be afraid to step up or lean in or whatever term you want to use, because we all have something really great to offer in the workplace. And our power comes from a different place than perhaps the hierarchical power of our male colleagues and we shouldn't be afraid to use it, we shouldn't be afraid to manage-up. We shouldn't be afraid to understand who has power in an organization--informal and formal--and work with that because we have perceptive abilities that in certain respects are very strong. I thought her book pointed a lot of that out. Certainly there are parts of the book that most women cannot relate to because of who she is, where she came from, the opportunities that she's had, but at the end of the day I think she was talking about what it's like to be a woman leader and there was a lot that resonated.
Some of it resonated with me as well, especially her point that women are stagnating at certain levels in organizations in part because we just don't talk about gender in the workplace.
I couldn't agree more. And I think there are internal barriers. I've watched it over my whole career. A woman gets so far and then you're going to appoint the corporate CFO and it's the guy in the suit who gets the job when you know the woman candidate had all the requisite skills.
I think that relates back to board composition, who's making decisions on the board, most major boards are still primarily male dominated, and we've got to start there. There's got to be more women sitting at the board table, more women on these search committees, and more women participating in the decision making. Companies have to start paying attention to that. When I speak to women's groups and we talk about joining organizations, I tell them to look at two things: who's sitting at the board table, and the composition of the executive team. If you have choice about where you're going, think about who's making the strategic and policy decisions.
So--hypothetical scenario--you're offered a leadership role in an organization, and you look at the executive team and the board and see all white males. Do you run in the opposite direction or do you decide to be the one to break through that barrier?
Well, I've done it. I've stepped into those situations and they're uncomfortable, but at least it's a start. You have to interview them as much as they're going to interview you, because some of them are going to be nonstarters. If you think you're going to be sitting there as a token, don't waste your time.
I put emotional intelligence hand-in-hand with political acumen. We're not really good at politics in the organization--sensing who's important, who has the power, how we can be recognized, how we can manage-up. We're kind of afraid of politically powerful people, so we don't put ourselves forth to board members, to executive officers. If you really watch the men in the organization you see that they're all over that. It's like in business school; they're the first ones raising their hands. I say emotional intelligence and political savvy go hand-in-hand because it puts politics in a more favorable light rather than a negative one.
From your experience, what are the strongest qualities you've seen in leaders and how do those qualities translate into success?
The strongest leaders I've seen are ones who have vision but at the same time can keep their eye on where they need to go, evaluating different ways to get there. That's a skill that I think women have in a more developed way, but it's also a skill that is misunderstood in the boardroom.
Boards that are primarily made up of men want strong leaders who say: "Our vision is that in 2017 we will be this, this, and this, and here is how we're going to get there: first, we're going to do X, second we'll do Y, and third we'll do Z."
Women, on the other hand, approach it from the point of view that there are various ways to get there, the paths are different, and the people and the companies we may deal with will be different, but each will have value, and so we want to keep all these doors open while we're deciding what's best for the company, or the community we serve, or the market we want to get into. This will get you where you want to be--probably faster--and ending up in a better place. But this is seen as less strong than the linear thinker, who goes in and says "I'm going to do this first, this second, and this third," which is pretty much how men think. And when they think that way, they tend to leave a lot of bodies in the wake as they go along. But women can keep everybody moving and end up with something that's more acceptable--or accepted by more people who feel like they have some ownership.
What is the one behavior or trait you've seen derail the careers of leaders--what would you caution women about?
You have to know what you stand for. I say this to every new leader: Make sure everyone knows what you stand for and repeat it over and over again. I'm in health care--every time I meet with people, I say the most important thing we can do is to transform the health care system in the United States in a safe, high-quality way. We need to do it. We need to be safe and we need to be high-quality. We need to transform. When people talk about me, they talk about clinical transformation.
No matter what you're doing, know what you stand for. But then, make sure your behaviors support those values, because if you say one thing and you do something else, to me, that's derailment. You won't be seen as authentic and people will not follow you.
Who has had a tremendous impact on you as a leader (mentor, boss, teacher, role model)? Why and how did this person (or people) impact your career?
My mother and sisters aside, I've been fortunate to have three really influential people in my life. When I started out as a young nurse, my first nursing supervisor was a woman named Marilyn. I saw in her a woman who knew who she was, knew what she stood for, who could laugh with the best of them, didn't need to be stern and hierarchical, and yet she got a group of rowdy young nurses to do whatever she wanted. We would do anything for her because she respected us. She knew what our talents were and she made sure to point those out and I always looked at her and said "I want to be like her when I grow up." I never forgot her and although she's since passed on, I'm good friends with her daughters and I've helped them in their careers as their mother helped me--they're not nurses.
The other one was a nun, Sister Agnes, who, after I finished graduate school, forced me to go into the finance division. I won't go into all the background; it's a great story, though, I tell it all the time. She told me that for certain reasons, we needed a clinical perspective in the finance division and she wanted me to go there, and I said no thanks. And so she moved my office. I tell people that that taught me a lesson--she saw something in me that I didn't see in myself and that's something I call an inflection point in my career because once you get a clinical person with financial acumen you can go just about anywhere. That's what she did for me. And talk about going outside your comfort zone! I tell women all the time to find the sweet spot in the organization--the thing that's causing the most trouble--go after it even if it's going to make you feel uncomfortable, and see what you can do with it.
And then I'm just very lucky with the person who recommended me for CEO of Catholic Health East, and that's Bob Stanek [Robert V. Stanek, retired president and CEO, Catholic Health East]. I say all the time that he has a wonderful, very strong leader in his wife and I think she obviously influenced him to support me [laughs]. And he was like Sister Agnes--he saw something in me that I didn't see in myself. And I talk with Bob regularly; in fact we had a conversation today.
So I was very lucky to have three mentors, but I don't know if any of it from them was intentional. In other words, I don't know that any of them woke up every morning and said to themselves that they wanted to make sure that they paid attention to young women in the organization and helped them learn to be leaders. It was in them--it was part of who they were and how they dealt with people, which made it even more important to me.
What is your greatest success story in leading change within an organization? I guess this is kind of a silly question since you just completed the merger between CHE and Trinity Health.
Well, that's it! How many times in a career do you get to bring together a $14 billion dollar company? If we were a Fortune 500 company we would be at 200 or around there. It was great change and it meant not only working with our board but working with our sponsors--the religious congregations that started all of our hospitals. This was a significant change for them because they had to--in civil law terms--give up ownership of their own entities that their congregations had had for over 100 years. It was also bringing everyone, at least on the CHE side because that's where I started, to understand that there's a burning platform in health care, not just with Catholic Health East but everyone in health care has to understand that it's too expensive and the outcomes are not as good as they should be. We've all got to work together to effect major change and that change is going to be painful; it's going to mean a lot of sacrifice and we have to do it together.On the other hand, we had a structure set up for the leadership of the merged entity and the fellow who was to be president left--he accepted a job someplace else. So I had to work on the Trinity Health side on some of the same change management activities and at the same time try to develop their confidence in me that we could bring this forth and that we could go forward.
So the greatest success is the fact that the entities are merged. The executive team is doing unbelievable and extraordinary work given the fact that they have kept the trains running, while merging the organizations and preparing for all the changes with healthcare reform. A new leader is in place who brings an exciting new perspective to the work and the goals set out at the beginning of the merger have all been met.
What can organizations do to ensure the professional growth and development of women as leaders (do you think organizations should be accountable for this)?
I do. And I think they have to pay attention--they have to pay attention to who sits on their boards, who's on their executive teams, and I think they have to take risks with some people--you know, if we're not all wearing the 42-long suit, it's okay. Good leaders come in all shapes and sizes and gender. Women are over 50 percent of the population. There should not be a disproportionate share amongst the executives or the board. We have to pay attention.
I certainly applaud companies that have put together groups of women that support one another. The only things I've seen that are an issue with that is when are you going to meet? And what are you going to do? Can everyone meet in the evening? We have to think about the fact that some may be single parents; some may have other family obligations. We have to think about this if we are putting together a "Lean In" group to ensure that everyone can participate, otherwise they can turn out to be exclusionary.
What one book would you recommend to women who aspire to leadership?
That's a tough one because I'm a big reader. I read a lot about women in leadership and I get a kick out of Helen Fisher's work on enlightened leadership and brain differences.
But I think that it would be a book that had nothing to do with leadership and everything to do with mindfulness and reflection. At the end of the day, it's being a good listener, it's being able to reflect each morning on who you are and how you want to face the day, that's most important. Being mindful of who you are in relationship to everyone else in the world is more important than a text on leadership--for both women and men.
About Judith M. Persichilli
Judith M. Persichilli, R.N., B.S.N., M.A., is President Emeritus of Catholic Health East-Trinity Health. She previously served as interim President and CEO of CHE Trinity Health and helped lead CHE's planned merger with Trinity Health, a consolidation that would result in the U.S.'s third-largest not-for-profit health system employing 87,000, with combined revenue of more than $14 billion. As President of Catholic Health East, she led a health system that includes 39 acute-care hospitals, 26 long-term-care facilities and other operations in 11 Eastern states. She has served as the President of St. Francis Medical Center and Executive Vice President, Northeast Division of Catholic Health East. She is a Trustee of Georgian Court University, and is a member of the Board of the New Jersey Healthcare Quality Institute, the Board of Directors of the Kerney Foundation and the Board of the Catholic Foundation of Greater Philadelphia.